Heading Forward, what to do?

[Dubz41]

However, isn't most of that what we've been saying for some time? If one cut-and-pasted the article and posted it in most of the forums I frequent, it would get, in addition to a lot of agreement, a fair number of Captain Obvious awards.

Jeez Half, I was just trying to get the ball rolling.
My take: Don't cut CMIII, he's still the only playmaker we have. He should be moved into more of a Peppers role, designated pass rusher. He's got Super Bowl experience, he's got work ethic and he conducts himself with class off the field. We're not hurting for that money and he'd be a great mentor for our 1st round pick. Next year you offer him a lot less for his new role.
Agree on HaHa. Keep him playing for his next contract. Linsley needs to be upgraded. He's too small to backup at guard and doesn't get movement up front. He's solid but limited. McCray could possibly contend for the spot, but I'd like to see Billy Price from Ohio St. in the second round. Price can play either C or G.
I've changed my mind at WR. Sign Adams, he is the best we've got right now and with some speed on the other side he can be even more effective. Keep Cobb. I know, he's not worth his contract, but we go long too much. If they used him more he'd be fine. Plus, he's 26 and Jordy's 32. Jordy disappeared the second half. The money he is making is some of the most wasted money on the roster right now. I love Jordy, but watching him more closely....he doesn't appear to have 'it' anymore. Keep him only at a reduced salary. Michael Clark might be something next year, as our 4th or 5th WR. Until then I would like to see Anthony Miller (Memphis) in third round.
CB has two guys who I think are going to be pretty good. Randall and King have the makings of a good duo. Offer House a reasonable contract and he might stay healthy all year with reduced snaps. 3rd round comp or 4th round pick would be prudent. TE- we need to address that soon. I advocate sending one of our numerous late round picks for a 2nd or 3rd year TE that's stuck on someone's depth chart (Maxx Williams- Baltimore) AND drafting one with upside. Rookie TEs hardly ever produce so don't spend too high of a pick (like a 3rd for DickRod). That's enough for now. Lots of fixing to do!

 

[Mark87]

First move..... Green Bay Packers receivers coach Luke Getsy leaving Green bay for Mississippi State as OC/WR Coach per reports

 

[TW]

That's one. If a couple more show that they're moving over the next 10 days, I'm going to start believing there's a major shift about to happen on the sidelines.

 

[57packer]

My take as the GM for the day:

First, we will be about $40mil under the CAP if we do nothing next year. No need to worry about money. I'm not making any decisions based on the need to open some CAP space.

At QB, I'm on the lookout, but I'm just not going to draft one early until I have a better feel for AR's plans. I work to get a deal done for him to make him the highest paid player.

At WR, Cobb is a cut or restructure for me. A small guy who is getting slower is worse that a bigger guy who is getting slower. He just doesn't have much impact anymore. Jordy, I keep and I don't mess with his deal Some loyalty is needed here. I would plan to move him primarily to the slot next year where he can still make some plays despite being a little slower. Adams needs to be paid. A decent deal won't handicap the team even if the concussions come back to bite us. I draft one early.

At TE I bring everyone back but draft a guy in the middle rounds. Let training camp weed out who goes.

RB is a position where I take another guy - 5th round or later.

On the OLine I bring everyone back and I extend Linsley. I'm not paying him a lot, but something middle of the pack for OC's seems about right. Bulaga's situation is complicated due to the injury. I see how rehab goes and cut him before the season starts if he's just not ready to go. I pass on Evans at this point. I have to draft an OT in the first 2-3 rounds as I have nothing there right now. Also need another pick for depth later in the draft.

Ha Ha is tough. I think I see if a deal can be done for a reasonable dollar amount and number of years. I think he can be a solid player and I would see if I can get him a little cheaper coming off a down year. I'm also fine with re-signing Burnett at a reasonable deal. He still has value.

DLine is set for me, though you never turn one down if available as a steal in the draft.

ILB would get some help if you keep CMIII and move him inside. He's not getting it done consistently on the outside anymore but is still mobile and perhaps capable of being more disruptive coming from different angles. You can't cut everyone not performing to their contract as it can hurt a team's reputation with free agents, both inside and outside the locker room. We still need to draft one in the first 4 round.

OLB is probably concern number one for me. I'm using my first pick on one unless the draft just doesn't fall right, which can happen.

I'm not going early for a CB because I honestly don't know if they suck or just aren't getting coached. As with any premium position, I'd draft one if he falls to me there early, but otherwise I pass and take one later. I want to see if better coaching can save this position before I invest another early pick. I'm not sure if House is a wise investment at this point and I might be tempted to end that relationship.

That brings me to my last thought and that is that Capers and the defensive staff need to go. As I've said in other threads, I want a total housecleaning at this point, but if that doesn't happen, I at least want a whole new crew on defense. In large part because I want to evaluate these players that I've drafted in the early rounds with a new group of coaches to better see what I've got. With this current group, I swear I could draft 5 more guys in the first 4 rounds for defense next year and those picks would be wasted because we'd see the same stupid mistakes all over again.

I do a little work in FA this year. Sign a RT or RG if one is available without breaking the bank. Maybe a CB for depth because I'm not sure about House. I'd for sure look at a FA TE as well.

 

[Cheesedog]

Warning: Cheese's big rant

At this point the player moves don't really matter because the system MM and DC have in place doesn't fit the guys we have. Which like I've said before doesn't match with TTs faustian quest to always be the youngest team on the league.

MM's offensive philosophy and DCs defensive philosophy are built on a belief in rainbows and unicorns. That somehow young, cheap UDFA and later round picks can pick up complex packages etc... and be effective. MM's whole "i create mismatches with my offensive packages" is pure ..... Unless arod is making the throws only one of the best to ever play can make, and Jordy and Adams (to a lesser extent Cobb) are making ridiculous catches, MMs entire offense falls apart. He doesn't have an offensive philosophy really. He is Quixotic in his belief that it's him that is at the core of the offense when it wins... He's chasing windmills trying to make Hundley into a downfield passer. The whole Hundley experiment has exposed him big time. Hundley is no starter, but he should have been able to score at home at least a few times.. There is a reason why the offense is so bad when backups get plugged in....

DC has an overly complex defense, which as with the offense, is tough for guys from small programs and limited physical ability to pick up and execute. Again, TT is not getting the guys needed to properly execute this stuff either. So it's not all on MM/DC.... But their stubborn refusal to change is bringing things down.

Speaking of TT, every time I hear him say "we drafted a football player" I want to (darnit, where'd that puke emoji go?)... Square pegs in round holes in a complex scheme.. Good enough to win you a so/so division and get into the playoffs because of your QB. Where predictably the house of cards comes crashing down because other teams understand the need to have guys who know what they are doing and can play physical. When you expect/need guys to contribute right away the team can't afford for high draft picks to take 3 years to develop, nevermind the UDFA and lower picks. Remember, you like to let your veterans walk so you can rollover cap every year and stay young...

I'm still where I was at after the SEA playoff debacle... MM and TT make a bad combination. GB will never sniff another SB with that combo. With the right guy running the draft and FA signings I actually think MM could do better. I'm more inclined to say TT is the one who needs to go. Mainly because he doesn't seem to want to build a winner. He focuses on individuals in a vacuum, then leaves it up to MM to work miracles.. A pick here and there who doesn't live up to potential I think could be a coaching issue. But seeing how many picks GB has used on DEF over past 3-4 years, and the fact those picks have not turned into a good D to me means TT is picking guys who don't fit and have limited NFL ability. In other words, GBs scouting and drafting are not up to snuff.

At the very least GB needs to suck it up and get rid of TT. The next GM can decide what to do with MM. TT just isn't good at building a football team. He can't see the forest for the trees. And the modern NFL is all about building that team. Draft position is over rated for the most part. As many teams who have been successful pick later round. And teams that suck donkey balls pick high alot (i'm lookin at you CLE, HOU, TB, etc...)

So there is it. Without major structural and management changes the moves don't really matter, because the people making the moves are a majority of the problem...

 

[Mark87]

Bunch of chatter today about Casey Hayward and Micah Hyde. How they are pro bowl players elsewhere but GB let them walk.

First off both are playing in 4-3 schemes which fit their temperaments better. Hyde moved to safety which is where his ballhawking skills really stand out. Hayward is playing in a man press scheme that brings lots of pressure... both are in better situations then what they left.

Been harping on it for 3 yrs. We need to be a 4-3 base team that plays man coverage with some zone sprinkled in. GB needs to simplify the defense and attack.

Cut Matthews loose and trade out some of the 3-4 guys. 2-3 draft picks and a couple FA later your in business.

 

[TW]

Bunch of chatter today about Casey Hayward and Micah Hyde. How they are pro bowl players elsewhere but GB let them walk.

First off both are playing in 4-3 schemes which fit their temperaments better. Hyde moved to safety which is where his ballhawking skills really stand out. Hayward is playing in a man press scheme that brings lots of pressure... both are in better situations then what they left.

Been harping on it for 3 yrs. We need to be a 4-3 base team that plays man coverage with some zone sprinkled in. GB needs to simplify the defense and attack.

Cut Matthews loose and trade out some of the 3-4 guys. 2-3 draft picks and a couple FA later your in business.

You nailed it on Hayward and Hyde. They are just like Kampmann. Not suited to play in the 3-4. That doesn't mean they aren't talented, it just means they are most fit to play in a system that utilizes an individuals skills, not compromise them, by forcing them to play contrary to what they do best. We see this over and over in Green Bay, and the coaching staff throws enough shade out there that it makes individual players look like they aren't doing their job. It's something I've been obsessed with for years. The players aren't the problem, the defense itself is the problem.

Making matters worse, the Packers don't seem to be capable of finding the kind of guys who excel in the 3-4. Matthews did, and to a degree, so did Charles Woodson. Yet, even Woodson ended up compromised by the way they utilized him.

They can do this, and still have time to reach the top with Rodgers, but if it isn't started next year, it won't happen. It may seem a little scary, but it's needed. If they don't make this change, it's going to be a long time before we see the likes of Rodgers again, so it might be a long time before we see another run at the top prize.

 

[Cheesedog]

You nailed it on Hayward and Hyde. They are just like Kampmann. Not suited to play in the 3-4. That doesn't mean they aren't talented, it just means they are most fit to play in a system that utilizes an individuals skills, not compromise them, by forcing them to play contrary to what they do best. We see this over and over in Green Bay, and the coaching staff throws enough shade out there that it makes individual players look like they aren't doing their job. It's something I've been obsessed with for years. The players aren't the problem, the defense itself is the problem.

Making matters worse, the Packers don't seem to be capable of finding the kind of guys who excel in the 3-4. Matthews did, and to a degree, so did Charles Woodson. Yet, even Woodson ended up compromised by the way they utilized him.

They can do this, and still have time to reach the top with Rodgers, but if it isn't started next year, it won't happen. It may seem a little scary, but it's needed. If they don't make this change, it's going to be a long time before we see the likes of Rodgers again, so it might be a long time before we see another run at the top prize.

Excellent points TW and Mark. Just more evidence pointing to TT and drafting being a big part of the problem.

 

[57packer]

I defer to you guys with more X & O type experience, but how does the 3-4 or 4-3 significantly change the play in the back end? I'm truly asking.

To me, the problem with Hyde had less to do with the scheme and more to do with the position. Hyde was constantly asked to play nickel corner, something he just wasn't that good at with limited speed and "quickness". Hayward was asked to play man coverage against bigger guys when his skills seemed more suited to playing off-man or zone. Seems like just more coaching failures to me.

Hyde should have been a full-time safety. I felt like that right from the beginning, but they were constantly short on CBs so they kept playing him out of position. Had they been a 4-3 team using him in nickel, I think he'd have been the same. The coaches messed up. Had they put Hyde where he belonged right from the start, they wouldn't have needed to draft HaHa.

Hayward to me was kind of the same situation. He excelled playing in the slot where he wasn't playing tight man coverage and bigger WRs couldn't get physical with him. They should have just kept him there or let him play to his strengths on the outside. In today's game, your nickel CB is the 12th starter on defense and his value to the team would be high even in just that role. Michael Cohen was saying on a radio show that the Chargers play more zone than man, and that seems to suit Hayward better.

I just think the coaches inability to work with what they have is more a problem than the scheme - though I'm not against a return to the 4-3 at all. They keep experimenting with guys to make them into something they aren't suited to. Is part of it on TT for drafting them, sure it is. The thing is, good coaches would have seen how guys like Hyde and Hayward function best and put them in those positions rather than screwing around and moving them around constantly and asking them to do things they weren't all that good at. Bring in a coaching staff that isn't playing "games" and is just coaching a simple, understandable scheme in the secondary and putting guys at their best positions and leaving them there. 3-4 or 4-3 won't matter as much if they do that.

 

[Dubz41]

Agree 57. I don't think our staff does a very good job of using the talents of the players they have. I think that's the difference betwee Minn and GB defenses right now. GB has a 'scheme' and Mn tailors their defense to their players strengths. So when GB fails, Capers points at the missed assignments of the players. When MN fails their coach chews their a** out because its their effort thats lacking because Zimmer is already accentuating their strengths. Capers, and more so lately MM, thinks the strength of his defense/offense is his scheme. I know a few like to lay it all at the feet of TT, but I don't care who you draft- Capers will compromise them and try to shove that square peg into a round hole.
That's why I firmly believe a new coordinator could experience some immediate success if/when they hire one (from outside the Green n Gold country club). TTs not blameless, but there IS some talent there.